So I read out the statement and I had said beforehand, “When I go up I don’t want to swear on the Bible”, because to me that would be very insincere, because I really do think so many people base their lives on a book, and forget what it’s all about. And so to me it’s caused more trouble in people’s lives …

Hmm.

… I’d rather, I’m a pantheist, I’d rather just know what’s real, what’s true and so, that would be like saying I don’t really mean what I say if I held the Bible. So I said I, they said, “Well you will take the pledge”, vow, whatever it’s called, so that’s what I did.

But in the end of my reading this, this chap, the barrister for the Home Office, jumps up and he starts, his first question was, “How old was your daughter when you adopted her?” So I thought, “What has that to do with the price of fish?” Really. I mean, really and truly, “What’s his tack here?”

Hmm.

“What’s going on?” And I realised because his, and then he said, “Did you tell her she was adopted?” And I can remember saying, “It’s the law.” Well, actually it’s the law in this country, if you’re in front of a High Court judge and have gone through an adoption society. But, I mean, he was just going on this like I was almost, and I suddenly thought, “Do you know what? He’s trying to make it out, I think he’s trying to make out, let’s find a reason that she might have wanted to end her life that has nothing to do with the prison service?” And I thought, “This really, I …” and one thing I don’t like is bullying, I can’t bear bullies.

Hmm.

Really and truly. So my mouth was already dry from reading the statement but I thought, “I'm going to stay, if it kills me, focused to answer him, whatever he’s asking.” And then when he said, he said, “Would you like to tell the jury…” Oh and the coroner said to him, “Mr, whatever his name was, there’s no need to stand up.”; because he did all this pacing up and down and posturing. Well, I didn’t get where I am today [laughs] as I say, without seeing people posturing and I was thinking, “You naughty person.”

Hmm.

“Really, of all the situations to do this in, this is not appropriate”. So he started his walking up and down. He’d ask me a question and then turned his back on me and walked away, obviously not wanting to hear the answer. It, there were like questions, just questions for the sake of asking them. And the coroner said to him, “There’s no need to stand Mr, whatever his name was” And he said he wouldn’t sit down. He wouldn’t sit down for the coroner. He said, “I want the jury to see me.” And you always think afterwards of what you could have said at the time but anyway I’m so glad that I just stayed very focused on what he was asking me. So he went off the tack of asking when I’d said that, “It’s the law,” you know, “that you tell your child.”

Hmm.

Anyway, then he said, so then he went on another tack and he said, “Would you like to tell the jury about your daughter’s relationship with Mr…”, meaning her boyfriend.,  “I, I believe the relationship didn’t always go well.” Or something like that. And so I said, “No I wouldn’t, that is nothing to do with anyone but her and her boyfriend.” And I said, “And it’s not for me to …” and then my mind went, I was looking for the word “speculate”.

Hmm.

… but nothing came [laughs].

[laughs].

… and the more I tried to think, the more, you know when your mind jams, and absolutely zilch, my mind went completely blank. So, and the next thing I remember was my, the barrister, my barrister if you like, standing up and saying to the coroner, “I must object” or something that this, and then I was asked to go out. The coroner politely asked me to leave the room.

Did it take the jury take long to decide what had happened in the end?

Yes, I mean, I’ve no idea what they were thinking all along because they were very professional and of course you don’t, they don’t talk to you, you don’t talk to them…

Hmm.

… they don’t give any indication of what they feel. But you know what? On the very last day, which we didn’t know was going to be last day, we didn’t know how long it was going to go, and, with two weeks on the Wednesday of the second week, oh, there were all sorts of witnesses and doctors who last saw [my daughter] and then the expert witness who, around detoxification, who looked at what [my daughter] had been having and then what they’d given her and whatever, and gave her opinion. And then the jury went out to, they were told, given guidance from the coroner and, and they went out and we were all to wait for the jury. And it might have gone to the next day of the day after, they, we’d already been told that. And then about 5 o’clock, we were to finish about five, and about, just before five I think it was, the coroner said, “I think we’ll be getting a verdict soon”.

Hmm.

But obviously we didn’t know. I think, I think he said, “I think we might be getting a verdict today.” But they needed the room, we were in the Town Hall.

Hmm.

... because there were so many people, we needed the room so we knew it would have to, the session would have to finish. Anyway at the eleventh hour they came in, we were taken in for the verdict. And we stood there and I had the solicitor on the right …

Hmm.

… and a good friend of mine, a very loyal friend of mine, on this side. And I remember thinking, just, I’d no idea what they were going to say and I can remember just listening to my breathing. And the leader of the jury got up and she said, I don’t know what her first words were, but then she said, “Before we give our verdict can we,” to the coroner she said, “can we just say to the deceased person’s mother, to,...” and she said my name, “can we just offer our condolences and say how sorry we are that she’s lost her daughter?”

Hmm.

And I can remember going, “Oh, oh, how kind. How very kind.” Apparently I couldn’t stop saying it. “Oh, how very kind.” And I either had forgotten or didn’t know that you’re not meant to say, I’m not meant to say anything out loud unless I’m in the witness box. But I couldn’t stop saying, “Oh, thank you very much, how kind.” And the coroner, I was aware after a while, the coroner was saying, “I’m sure that the deceased person’s mother would like to, is grateful and would like to, I’m sure she appreciates that.” And he kept saying it, probably realising that at some point I was going realise that I should stop talking. But I couldn’t, I was so surprised …

Hmm.

And that just meant the world to me actually. Because they give you no indication of what they’re feeling. And then they came, she read out the verdict, which seemed to go on forever. And that’s why I think I can’t remember, even thought I’ve got the death certificate, but I do know it says something with the with the features of strangulation. It doesn’t actually say suicide.

Hmm.

And it doesn’t say open verdict. It’s two paragraphs and it indicates that there were contributory that they jury believed there were contributing factors, which led to her ending her life.